Curse

Dreamsmith · Mar 30, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It implies that characters have been wiped - they thrived on the back of a couple of alpha testers who could grind out equipment for a month. As alpha testers no longer play on the live servers, that abuse is no longer relevant. Equipment still matters, but clearly not as much as it used to - and because of changes in structure to the test, you don't have the huge equipment disparities that you used to.

You used to have bigger skill disparities, too. Prior to the last BWE, I'd frequently construct what I thought would be a good build, then look up where to acquire the skills, only to discover there was almost always one or two that the answer was, "Beg an alpha," and even if you could get the charm from one, you still needed the ring. I eventually threw in the towel and just said, "screw it, I'll just evolve as I play, use what I come across, and don't worry about trying to work towards some target build." Thankfully, as of the last BWE, it's now possible to make the build you want without having an alpha to do all the grinding for skills for you. In any case, given how the situation used to be, it sounds like War Machine would have had a much bigger advantage than simply better equipment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bgnome

i recall there being a workaround for customization a while back and was wondering if anyone figured if they fixed it yet. theoretically, you could create a premade pvp character and start with top level customized gear then hand it off to someone at your guild hall and remake a new char with the same name that could use that gear. wouldn't this make it so you could get that uber pvp gear on a new pve character?

IIRC, it worked in December but was fixed by the January BWE. You can't even hand down customized equipment from one roleplaying character to another of the same name now, let alone swipe stuff off a PvP-only char.

Ellestar · Apr 01, 2005, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The problem comes in no small part from the 'fully equipped' part. Remember that the PvE part of the game is going to run on item grind. As a result, any character without 'perfect' equipment, AKA, all of them, would be strictly inferior to a PvP clone of himself. Notice how RP characters have access to PvP areas? They should be able to play in those areas without getting laughed at, and 'perfect' PvP characters would accomplish just that.

Plus even if a RP character did have a set of top notch equipment, they are so much more inflexible than re-rolling PvP characters that they're at a sizable disadvantage.

The question was with the catch. The problem was different. In a PvE part of the game, players WANT to spend huge amounts of time to gather rare equipment. That creates a problem for a PvP part of the game. That's why PvP chars were implemented in the first place - to solve that difference between the needs of PvP and PvE players so to make BOTH parts of the game better.
Now you say that it's bad because PvE players want both to farm uber items and be rewarded for their farming in PvE that is contrary to a game advertisement (it shouldn't reward time spent playing, it should reward skill) and that is exactly why PvP characters were implemented.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

What I don't like is exactly what you're thinking here - the sharp divide between PvE and PvP, both in players and characters. This is not supposed to be two separate games that just happen to be running on the same engine.

Who said that it's not supposed to be that way? If it's good for a players then why not? Now it's possible to add more PvE (it will not screw PvP part) and a required PvE part now is smaller for PvPers at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The game isn't supposed to have PvE characters and PvP characters - it's supposed to just have characters, period.

(c) Ensign.
I prefer to see a statements like that with an "IMHO" instead of "period". Unless you're a lead game designer, of course.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

PvP characters are supposed to be a way for people to jump into PvP and be competitive more quickly, or for long time players to switch characters easily without having to redo everything again. What it is not is a mechanism to completely obsolesce any character that is not a PvP character.

http://www.guildwars.com/community/f...iday-bwe5.html
New PvP Characters – We have completely revamped PvP-only characters to make them a more comprehensive solution for competitive gamers. Our goal is for players to be able to try many different character types and team builds in competition without having to continually level up new characters from 1 to 20.
If PvE players want to level and gather rare items, it's their choice. And they should be responsible for that instead of forcing PvP players to grind too (like you want to do by making RP characters ultimately more powerful).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't think that there need to be significant advantages, but there need to be advantages. A player should not play through the entire game, reach the Tombs, and feel like he needs to create a PvP carbon copy of himself if he's to compete.

http://www.guildwars.com/gameinfo/default.html
The game is designed to reward player skill and teamwork, not time spent playing, so you won't need to spend hundreds of hours leveling up your character to compete.
Thanks to PvP characters as they are now, of course (also see a fansite friday above).
Also, i hope you don't want to say that lvl 20 is "entire game"? As you know, real GW starts at lvl 20 where you have a lot of zones to explore, skills and items to find etc. So hopefully you'll find or trade best equipment you need when you will really play through the entire game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If the game is competitive and running 24 hours a day, it might happen even more quickly than that.

Exactly. And that's why PvP players need PvP characters to play in PvP. PvE players are not competitive anyway and so they will not change builds that fast just because of the changes in metagame, with PvP characters or without. Actually, they'll not even see these changes in a metagame because changes will happen that fast only near the top of the ladder (that will use PvP characters to do that).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because a 'normal' character should not be playable only in 'casual PvP'. If only PvP characters made ten minutes ago are competitive in serious, competitive PvP, something is seriously wrong.

Even if there is a problem like that, it solves itself. If you're a competitive player, you have absolutely no problem to make a PvP character to be a little more powerful instead of farming on a PvE character to make it more powerful. After all, you're competitive and so you do everything possible to be more competitive.
If you care about a fact that you should use a PvP character instead of your lovely PvE character, then you're not a competitive player and so you're not competitive in a serious, competitive PvP no matter what (it doesn't matter if your PvE character have a worse items).
In short, it's a player's psychology problem. Either you're competitive or you aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think that creating a sharp PvE character / PvP character divide is a *much* bigger problem than a character with a 1000 hour lifetime having a couple of small advantages over a character with a 10 minute lifetime.

Second "problem" is actually one of the major game features, 1000 hour lifetime shouldn't be rewarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The *entire* problem is the item grind in the rest of the game. The items available to PvP characters are simply unavailable in the rest of the game world. If a player with a normal character could reasonably acquire top-end gear than this whole debate would be moot. But, simply, he cannot.

A majority of PvE players do not want to be able to easily acquire top-end gear. What is considered "reasonable" for PvP? It's less than 100 hours to get the best gear in a game and it's "extremely easy" for PvE. So it's not a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But not being able to compete with a character that you have spent a hundred hours on is a *huge* problem.
***
Doesn't it strike you as problematic that a player who wants to PvP should expect to use freshly rolled PvP characters to exclusion? Up until a week or so ago, you just had characters - characters that you'd play with on missions, or trade with, or take into the Tombs for PvP. Now that's been shattered and we have 'PvP only' character and 'everything but PvP' characters. How is that not a bad thing?

I consider himself a competitive player. So i'm doing whatever is more efficient. I don't care about a pixels on my screen (also called a PvE character by some). I see no problem in making a PvP character to PvP with.
For RP players, i suggest to think that it's a PvP avatar of their primary RP character if they really want to use top gear in PvP (that is not critically important for them anyway).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Nothing. The issue isn't with the items that can be unlocked - the issue is with the max damage, low requirement, perfect mod rares with free upgrade slots that every PvP character gets handed. Unlike upgrade components and runes that get traded on the open market, these items might theoretically exist but in practice just are not available. Once a RP character can reasonably acquire a 9 requirement, 15-28 Flatbow with the appropriate +15% damage modifier and free upgrade slots, then this issue will be considered solved.

Then this game will be less fun for a PvE players who enjoy finding rare items.

Dragonne · Apr 01, 2005, 02:00 PM // 14:00

(trying to bring the thread back on topic...)

I don't think the latest conjure nerf was so bad. AFAIK It was done to counter it's use with illusionary weapons, and has done that well. My problem is that the original nerf (damage reduction) wasn't reversed in the process. If you do one thing to make a specific situation less effective, and it doesn't work so you go back and add something else that's totally different, the original nerf should be removed. You don't just pile uneffective nerfs on something when only the last one does the job. In effect, you nerf the target into uselessness and obscurity.

Anyway, I have yet to check out if, for example, conjure flame works with a preparation like kindle arrow providing the required fire damage as a base. If it does then there's a whole new set of uses for those kinds of skills in conjunction with the conjures. Though the preparation time just reduces the amount of shots you get with conjure still in effect, at least it might work instead of being forced into using a flaming upgrade.

Personally I think if the reason for the nerf was exclusively against illus weaps (I haven't heard there was any other reason) then the proper nerf would have been simply to require a real weapon to use it.

Dreamsmith · Apr 01, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellestar

I prefer to see a statements like that with an "IMHO" instead of "period". Unless you're a lead game designer, of course.

Adding "IMHO" to a statement is pointless. Unless someone specifically says they're quoting someone else, it'd be pretty silly to assume they were presenting any opinion other than their own. Adding "IMHO" is just redundant.

Xellos · Apr 02, 2005, 03:08 AM // 03:08

No, that's your opinion. Some people try to post with no bias whatsoever, even their own.

Ellestar · Apr 02, 2005, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamsmith

Adding "IMHO" to a statement is pointless. Unless someone specifically says they're quoting someone else, it'd be pretty silly to assume they were presenting any opinion other than their own. Adding "IMHO" is just redundant.

I agree with what you said, but I wanted to say only that "IMHO" makes more sense in his phrase than "period". After all, he doesn't know what designers think about a game so it's only his opinion.